Debate on the Sabbath

From http://thetruth81901.yuku.com/topic/758/t/Debate-on-the-Sabbath.html

I like this response.


2 Corinthians 3:6-17 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the NEW TESTAMENT; not of the LETTER (the law), but of the SPIRIT: for the LETTER KILLETH, but the spirit giveth LIFE. But if the MINISTRATION OF DEATH (the law), written and engraven in STONES (the 10 commandments), WAS GLORIOUS, so that the children of ISRAEL could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of CONDEMNATION (the law) be glory, much more doth the ministration of RIGHTEOUSNESS EXCEED IN GLORY. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in THIS RESPECT, by reason of the glory that EXCELLED. For if that which IS DONE AWAY (the law) was glorious, much more that which REMAINETH is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to THE END of that which IS ABOLISHED: But their minds were BLINDED (Rom 11:25): for until this day remaineth the same VAIL untaken away in the reading of the OLD TESTAMENT; which vail is DONE AWAY IN CHRIST. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY."

Hebrews 8:6-8 "But now hath he obtained a MORE EXCELLENT ministry, by how much also HE (Jesus Christ) is the mediator of a BETTER COVENANT, which was established upon BETTER PROMISES. For if that first covenant had been FAULTLESS, then should NO PLACE have been sought for the SECOND. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of ISRAEL and with the house of Judah."

Romans 6:14 " For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the WORKS of the law are UNDER THE CURSE: for it is written, CURSED is everyone that continueth not in ALL THINGS which are written in the law to DO THEM."




*Indeed this is my final response to the issue and you can respond to it as you wish.


pitbull wrote:
The one does not logically follow the other. Just because I'm not supposed to judge you on the day you worship doesn't preclude the requirement to keep the Sabbath. BTW, that's a falacious arguement, since we are not to allow others to judge US on the day we commemorate (Col.2.16), among other things.


Response: It isnt a fallacious argument despite your word games. This is a slick sematic game by you. First, I purely stated a fact that Col. 2:16 forbids us to judge people what we eat or what day we worship. That isnt complicated and that is a simple statement that doesnt need to be criticized. Second, allowing others includes anyone (believer or non-believer) so this sematic game isnt working. Col 2:14 perfectly states that this works dogma of mandatory Sabbath Keeping is nailed to the cross never to be repeated again. I don't judge people worshipping on Saturday if they want, but I do have a right to criticize those who believe that this is Mandatory for all Christians to do. Once again, The New Testament never outlines the Sabbath as a mandatory requirement for all believers to follow at all. I'm believing in Christianity not obsolete Judaism.

pitbull wrote:
Excuse me?!? On the 7th day of the universe's history Yeshua observed the Sabbath. The children of Israel observed the Sabbath BEFORE the Covenant was given from Sinai, and YHWH expected them to observe it, was wroth when they didn't. Remember the double portion of manna on the 6th day and the commandment to NOT go out to gather it on the 7th day in Ex.16? Covenant was spoken in Ex.20. The Sabbath was miraculously set apart at least 3 ways BEFORE the covenant; 1) the double portion on the 6th day, 2) no provision on the 7th day, 3) the extra portion from the 6th day did not spoil overnight, as on the other days. The celebration of Christians (mostly on Sundays) commerates the resurrection of Christ from the dead." But Messiah rose on Sabbath afternoon, just before sundown! What has 1st day (sunday) got to do with it? Go ahead. Ask me to prove it.


Response: Your rhetoric is astounding to me. On the 7th Day, God rested and there is no evidence that Adam, Noah, Abraham or anyone alse before the Exodus 16 observed the Sabbath. There is not even a word of the Sabbath in Genesis and thats a fact you refuse to accept. The children of Israel observing the Sabbath is true in Exodus 16, but this was the first time in the Bible that God required the Hebrews to observe the Sabbath. Before Ex. 16, there were no evidence of anyone observing it or doing rituals to fulfill it all all. As for when Christ rose from the dead:

Jesus wasn't crucified after the Sabbath, but he rose again after the Sabbath (the Sabbath ends at sundown, there is no Sabbath after sundown and the Bible perfectly states that). Look at these verses to clear your distortion:

"1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay." (Mt. 28:1-6)

"Chapter 16
16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
16:7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
16:8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."
(Mark 16:1-9).

"Chapter 24
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
8 And they remembered his words,
9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles." (Luke 24:1-9).

www.bible.ca/d-3-days-and...hts.htm#IX

explains it greatly as well. Let the truth be told though the heavens fall.

pitbull wrote:
Just how is the New Covenant different from the Old? Where does any passage that refers to it say it is changed? Jer.31.31-34? Nope. Heb.8? Nope. In Hebrews 8.7, 13, and 9.1, the word covenant is supplied by the translators and shows their doctrinal bias. If we leave those words out, the word 'first' refers back to the noun 'ministry', and the ministry of the Melchizedek priesthood is DEFINITELY different that the ministry of the Levitical priesthood.


Response: There is plenty of evidence that that new covenant is different from the Old. The Bible says that we arent under the law (Rom. 6:14; Gal. 5:1.

Jer. 31:32-34 states in prophecy that God will have a new law from the old indeed. Also, Hebrews 7:12 outlines that God will change his law. Romans 10:4 proves that the old law is dead not required for believers in Jesus Christ. This sematics game doesnt work pitbull. One simple example is that in the Old law, there were priests who handled the religious affairs of the Temple. Now, in the New Law, the priesthood is changed into all believers are priests as mentioned forth in the Bible whether you like it or not. The word covenant outlines a reality and you saying that covenant was supplanted by the translators shows a hatred of the New Law. The Bible perfectly says that by the cross, the new law came into existence and much of the Old Law isnt a requirement for Christians to follow at all. Even Romans Rom. 14:5-6 say that a man can worship on anyday they want with no basic consequences. The ministry of the Levitical priesthood is also different from the universal priesthood of believers outlined in Hebrews. I reject Judaizers. Primarily Melchizedek relates to Christ and is no consequence about this subject. Take it as you wish.

pitbull wrote:
The only difference between the 'old' Covenant and the 'new' covenant is the medium on which it is inscribed, hearts of flesh vice tables of stone.


Response: There are tons of differences between the Old and New covenant:

-Christians arent required to follow many man-made laws and holidays after salvation like Jubilee, the Sabbath, etc. I have no problem though with folks celebrating Passover or the Feast of Tabernacles who are Christians.

-The Old law included the ceremonial and moral components of the Torah while the new law emphasizes the following of the moral law to have a better spiritual relationship with God. (i.e. The NT perfect says that we cant murder, commit adultery, steal, etc.)

-The New law offers better promises and eliminates animal sacrifice (Hebrews 8:6, 9:23-10:12). Romans 6:14 says that were not under the law, but under grace.

pitbull wrote:
Those who kept sunday before the Edict of Milan (320's CE) were syncretizers, attempting to paganize the Messianic faith. Constantine forced it on the entire empire and those who would not compromise were either killed or escaped to the hills (the Waldenses and Albigenses come to mind). Today, the lie of 'sunday' sanctity, which was instituted by Pope Constantine I, is so ingrained in society that Sabbath keeping is seen as DISobedience!


Response: This is the biggest falsehood of them all. There are tons of examples of Sunday worshipping Christians before the 325 AD. One example is from Acts 20:7 which states that on the first day, Christians broke bread. 1 Cor. 16:1-2, Acts 20:7, Acts 2:1) are evidence of Believers worshipping on the First Day of the Week. Many early church leaders like Ignatius (disciple of John) and early works like DIDACHE outline that worship by Christians were held in Sunday. To label legitiamate Christians who wanted to celebrate the Lord's Day and as syncretizers is very said and disrespectful. The Albigenses were Gnostics and heretics. Mainstream historians have proven this before so you cant make the charge of this accusation being false:

"Officially known as heretics, they were actually Cathari, Provenal adherents of a doctrine similar to the Manichaean dualistic system of material evil and spiritual good (see Manichaeism; Bogomils). They held the coexistence of these two principles, represented by God and the Evil One, light and dark, the soul and the body, the next life and this life, peace and war, and the like. They believed that Jesus only seemed to have a human body. 2
The Albigenses were extremely ascetic, abstaining from flesh in all its forms, including milk and cheese. They comprised two classes, believers and Perfect, the former much more numerous, making up a catechumenate not bound by the stricter rules observed by the Perfect. The Perfect were those who had received the sacrament of consolamentum, a kind of laying on of hands. The Albigenses held their clergy in high regard. An occasional practice was suicide, preferably by starvation; for if this life is essentially evil, its end is to be hastened. 3
They had enthusiasm for proselytizing and preached vigorously. This fact partly accounted for their success, for at that time preaching was unknown in ordinary parish life. In the practice of asceticism as well, the contrast between local clergy and the Albigenses was helpful to the new sect." (The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.)

The Waldensians were believers, but many bible believers worshipped on Saturday and Sunday and that isnt evil nor a sin at all. Constatine did allow of bad things, but he didnt institute Sunday worship since believers were worshipping on Sunday before 100 A.D. Also to claim that he did it is a Lie. The Sabbath isn't changed, but the Lord's Day was adopted to commerate the Resurrection of Christ in the New Law. The Sabbath was part of Mosaic law to commerate God's creation and the escape of Hebrew out of the bondage from Egypt. There is no change, but an addition of the Lord's Day for worship and celebration. I dont believe that folks worshipping on the Sabbath isnt disobedient. Thats their choice and they have a right to do that.

pitbull wrote:
These have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Covenant, which was given in Ex.20-23. Animal sacrifices FOR TRESPASSES AND SINS were required after the Hebrews broke the Covenant with the golden calf - AND NOT BEFORE!


Response: Animal sacrifices were definitely part of the Old covenant and many Hebrews did it in Jesus time. The Old law is more than the 10 commandments but includes thousands of rules and regulations that are required for those living in the times before and during the arrival of Christ. That is something a lot of law keepers don't mention in their literature lately.

pitbull wrote:
We refer to EVERY day by a pagan name. That is another gift of the Roman Catholic system. Don't blame Sabbath keepers for it.


Response: I blame the Roman Catholic system for it and many Sabbath keepers scaring people to believe that if you dont have Sabbath keeping, youre going to Hell which they promote in their literature and false dogma.

pitbull wrote:
That's right. To ALL Israel, not just the Jews. After Solomon, references to Israel are USUALLY about the 10 northern tribes, while references to Judah always refer to the 3 southern tribes. This includes the 'new' Covenant (Jer.31, Heb. . When Israel (10 tribes) were carried away by Assyria, they were easily assimilated into the nations since they'd been practicing paganism for hundreds of years (and calling their golden calves 'yhwh"). The were assimilated and have never been a nation or tribe since. They are essentially 'lost' to human history. But NOT to YHWH Yeshua. He knows every child of Israel, even those born in America or China. YOU could be one of them. I am.


Response: Israel included the Jews which you and I agree on. After the Assyrian Captivity, there is plenty evidence of many of the lost tribes returning back to Israel. One example you fail to mention is the Paul was from Tarsus and visited Israel many times and he was of the Tribe of Benjamin. Also, many of the lost tribes are proven to be in many regions of the world that are identifiable. Jew is used synonymously with Hebrew in Jeremiah 34:9. Mordecai was called a Jew although he was from the tribe of Benjamin (Esther 2:5).

2 Chronicles 34:5-9 actually make mentions of some of the lost 10 tribes returning back to Israel. Genetically and historically much of the so-called Lost Tribes are throughout the World (mainly in India, parts of Central Asia, and even some parts of Africa). Anna the Prophetess was of the tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36). Paul mentioned all twelve tribes. (Acts 26:6,7) and James mentioned all twelve tribes as well. (James 1:1) How can all 10 tribes be gone forever without a trace when Asher and Benjamin are mentioned existing in the vicinity of the Middle East after the Assyrian Captivity.

I will in 2005 list over a dozen verses to prove that many of the Lost Tribes existed after the captivity because of the half-truths indeed. 1 Peter 1:1 refers to them as part of the Dispersion. They arent all lost in human history. By the time of the NT, the words Jew and Israel are interchangeably used in the Bible. Even Acts 18:2 had 2 Jewish people were from Pontus not Israel. So, being a Jew doesnt mean youre specifically from the tribe of Judah. Before the Captivity, indeed there was a distinction between Jews and the rest of the 10 tribes.

pitbull wrote:
Please don't be ludicrous. Messiah NEVER broke any commandment. He IS Torah, for Pete's sake. To forsake any part of Torah is to forsake himself.


Response: I give you that Christ never broke any commandment but came to fulfill the Law, etc.

pitbull wrote:
TS24 wrote; "there is no verse in the New Testament that requires us to follow it to be saved at all. There is no evidence of Christians required to worship on the Sabbath to be saved."

Response: Jesus is our real Sabbath and Lord over the Sabbath.

Pitbull: No duh! Salvation is not by any works we can do. It is by the grace of YHWH through the faith of Yeshua, not by anything we can do. We keep sabbath to keep our souls from sin, which is the transgression of Torah (1Jn.3.4).


Response: Yeah, thats true that Jesus is our real Sabbath and Lord over the Sabbath. So, we agree thats true then why do you obsess with the Sabbath being part of the New law when it isnt. There is no verse in the Bible that to keep the Sabbath keep our souls from sin. The commandments in the Bible in a lot of instances exceed the 10 commandments or dont mention them at all. For example in John 13:34, Christ said that his new commandment was to love one another. The commandments mention in John refers to the word of God not explicitly of the 10 commandments. We are to follow 9 of them in our new covenant and again the Sabbath is voluntarily not mandatory for Christians to follow at all. .

And if you were really following the Sabbath, according to the OT, you need to (1) Doing no work. (Ex. 20:9-10) (2) No baking or boiling. (Ex. 16:23) (3) Bearing no burden. (Jer. 17:21-22) (4) Offering two lambs. (Num. 28:9-10). If you fail to do that and other actions, you therefore are breaking the Sabbath. God broke the Old Law by the Cross alone. If youre serious about following the Law, the Bible says that if you break one rule of the Old law, then youre guilty of all of them. (James 2:10) The Sabbath was a sign between God and the Children of Israel for a perpetual covenant not for the Church. ( Ezekiel 20:13, 20) The Church is different from Israel. Not to mention that you have to follow thousands of other rules in the Old Law as well.

If Bible-Believers/Fundamentals/Evangelicals are tired of the Adventist/Sabbath-keeping propaganda, you can go to:

watch.pair.com/sabbath.html




www.biblebelievers.com/Caldwell1.html




www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/...dventi.htm




www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/...martin.htm



www.jesus-is-lord.com/sabbath.htm



www.letusreason.org/7thAd15.htm






By Timothy

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