Chris: Your opinion here actually contradicts the Bible and Jesus' words. The so-called trinity baptism formula is actually a shut case for oneness as opposed to trinity. In the NAME of Father, Son Holy Spirit. One person, One name. In Acts, we see the obedient Apostles, baptising in the NAME of Yeshua (Jesus). So we see, they are one person. And of course, the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary resulted in Yeshua.
Response: You view God as a transformer without logic but suiting your opinion that God is not compound. You pretty much subscribe to the oneness opinion of the Baptismal formula for only Oneness people would believe that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one person, therefore you are an Oneness individual derived from the Modalist heresy in the 100s and 200s A.D. revived fully 1913. Salvation comes by Christ without baptism and thats know to the that issue of Acts 2:38. The Trinity is still used. One reason is Christ explicitly said in Mt. 28:19 to : Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: In that verse the is used to separate each member. If the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost were solitary one person totally it would use the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but it used name of the which is an definite article separating specific names to say during baptism. The translation scholar have determined this plenty of times. Acts 2:32-38 reads as this:
002:032 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
002:033 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
002:034 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
002:035 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
002:036 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
002:037 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
002:038 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
002:039 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
These verses are true in terms of using Christ for salvation, but each member of the Trinity works in mans salvation by the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit. In baptism, Peter used the identity of baptism but not a required prerequisite formula for usage. Only Christ has that edict in Matthew. To be fair and balanced I will study Acts 2:38 more closely.
Chris: Yes, then why are you hesitant to acknowledge that God can have many manifestations, yet be ONE person? Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Burning bush, pillar of smoke, Melchizedek, is God a hexity now? Or is He ONE???
Reponse: God has manifestations but only 3. You seem to hestitate that. The only 3 members he came in the OT was the Son, Father, and the Holy Spirit. Just because God appears in many manifestations doesnt mean he is one specific person. Distinctions of attributes and actions and existence of the members at the same time denotes specific distinction refuting the one single person notion. Ive havent seen a refutation yet to prove why the Father and the Son talked to each other at the same time, the Son raised from the dead, the Father and the Holy Spirit being invisible to mans sights, etc. and still exist as one person. First, you are fast with the burning bush issue. First Melchizedek was seen by Abraham and he was Christ before he was begotten by Mary. Christ also exists as the Angel of God and people called him God as well. The Father God existed in many forms like the Creator and the Burning Bush. The Holy Spirit in the OT was called the Spirit of God or Gods Spirit. The pronouns of us , them ,and they denote multiplicity in unity. So far Ive havent seen no conclusive refutation from Oneness scholars or you to refute those pronouns to this day.
Chris: Not ONE verse teaches the trinity. Trinitarians grab a verse here and a verse there, and try to piece it together, instead of just admitting that pagan religions of Babylon, just liek Freemasonry, gave us teh trinity.
Reponse: Unlike the pagan religions of Old, The Trinity believes in one God not many gods or a transforming god like Oneness people believe to this day. You believe that God is transformer, which is grossly pagan. Using multiple verse to prove a concept is not only logical but Biblical using intelligence. To deny the Trinity by virtue of it not mentioning the Bible will extinguish a list of religious concepts from the world in doctrine.
Chris: All such things are not evidence. Many Christians already had false doctrines in Paul's day, let along 100 AD and 200 AD. Yet no Apostle spoke of the trinity, and neither does teh Bible. I wonder why...
Response: They are evidence since they have more knowledge than me and lived directly in a short period of time afterwards. There opinion is not superior to the Bible, but they count for some credit since the Modalist heresy [believing in one God, but one person is the Holy Spirit, Son, and the Father] came in the 100s not historically or biblically in the time of Christ or the OT and non-Catholic Biblical Christians like Tertullian, Hippolytus rebuked them in their literature and mentioned the Blessed Holy Trinity by name. They were Christians and show no signs of being pagan or paganized. Early heresies were definitely in Pauls day, but the Trinity which is nothing more than the unity of God, 3 members, Distinctions between 3 members, and plurality of one deity is found explicitly in the Nt and even the OT. Its not a crime to use many verses to validate a point. One verse necessary cant validate any Biblical point like True Oneness, Resurrection, End-Times, Earthquakes, creation, etc. Again, just because a word isnt used in the Bible, doesnt mean that concept is non-existent in Christianity back then. Now to the Apostles. The apostles didnt spoke of there travels to China, India, Europe, Africa in the NT. The Apostle John, Matthew, and others mentioned explicitly the concepts of the Trinity.
Chris: I worship the ONE God. The one who manifested Himself in many forms, and who limited Himself in flesh for us. As the Scriptures say, he "humbled" Himself for us.
Edited by: drmlanc at: 10/1/03 4:45 pm
Response: I also worship One God, but you view God as a transformer to suit a time or manifestion.. I view God as infinite, but coming unto man in 3 members to fully express himself to man. God is infinite, but logical. God will not lie, cheat, and steal, but hes still Almighty God refusing to do so because thats against his orderly nature. You may deny it, but you embrace the Modalist, Oneness religion. One can be just as much as an united one as a numerical solitary one and God is One unified, compound, complex being.
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Chris: If God cannot appear to us in many manifestations, who then was the pillar of smoke, burning bush etc?
Response: God does appear in many manifestation, but those manifestation only occurs in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. First its time to look at the verses describing the situation. 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the
priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the
desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of
fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold,
the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great
sight, why the bush is not burnt.
3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God
called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses,
Moses. And he said, Here am I.
3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from
off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy
ground.
3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of
Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid
his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
3:7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my
people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason
of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;
3:8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the
Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good
land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto
the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the
Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the
Jebusites. (Exodus 3:2-8)
In those verse it perfectly says that the Angel of the Lord changed into the burning bush or flame and said I AM THAT I AM so the Angel of the Lord (visibly seen being is calling himself God). So if God is visible in that instance, its the pre-incarnate Son of God since the Father and the Holy Spirit are nowhere inside of the scriptures being seen literally by human beings at all. Only the Son is seen. There are many instances in the Bible that Moses and others have seen God face to face yet the Bible says the Father and the Holy Spirit cant be seen. The Son being not necessary confined to the physical formed also existed as a pillar of smoke and the Angel of the Lord both explicitly called God.
Chris: Many pagan religions have the idea of a 3 in 1 god. We are one of teh very few who does not. Biblical Christianity, which holds to the doctrine of One God.
Response: Biblical Christianity goes have the view of one God, but you have to make up your mind. You say God has many manifestations yet is one person which makes you believing in the Transformer god. I believe in one God in 3 members or persons that have always existed before the beginning of time.
Its not pagan since still its one God. Many pagan religions subscribes to the Robot transformer god like the Hindu god Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva which according to Classical Hindu Mythology, quoted pp. 82-84, David Adams Leeming, The World of Myth morphs from Vishnu, Brahma, and to Shiva or destroyer. Most pagan Trinities exist of Mother, Father, Son, or blended families or groups of 3 with no relationship to one total Diety [whether male or female] at all. The Trinity deals with one total Diety not son, cousins, sisters, or relatives.
Chris: Their opinion is just that. It is NOT evidence. Our evidence must come from Scripture itself. Think about that. If you need to use "Church father evidence" to prove a doctrine, what does that say of that doctrine? A Biblical doctrine needs only the Bible.
Response: I didnt know that direct early church quotes werent evidence. They are secondary to the Bible and Ive always mentioned that. Many scripture doctrines like the End-Times, communion, baptism, need multiple scripture verses for proper uses. Some conception only need one. Thats logical. You right to say that biblical doctrine only need the Bible. The Trinity is a complex dogma necessary to be validate by many bible verses to prove : Multiplicity in Unity of One God, Divinity of Each Members, and Unity of Each Member. Look can easily look at the Bible to figure that out.
Chris: You make no sense here. Yes, I believe God is one, and is infinite etc.
Response: Modalism doesnt make sense since it believes that God transforms into parts without no consistency yet remains one person at the same time. Is that confusing or what?. Modalism is refuted by noting that the Father and Son communicated with each other at the same time, the Father and the Holy Spirit wasnt brought into the flesh, only the Son resurrected from the dead, and only the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son. God isnt limited to do anything but is bounded by the truth and logic to serve the universe.
Chris: I believe that God is one. You can call me what you like. Call me a Jew too then... Jews believe in One God :)
Response: You are a Modalist Onenes. Muslims believe in one God and that doesnt mean they are true.
Chris: Now, does teh Bible say that God is limited to just three???
Response: The Bible only mentions the Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son as one God and 3 distinct persons. Manifestations consist of only those 3. Still I dont see a refutation of the pronouns us they and them used for God in plural in the Old Testament.
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